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outlaw1 Time for the phalanx to go back to work...

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Originally Posted by outlaw1

Palin, who operates more on family values (snip, cause I don't want to debate VAWA)
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[B wrote :
jcd[/b]1968;669982]I love reading your post, Outlaw (cute cow by the way, I'ma gonna be dream'in tonight!). But, I gotta take exception to this. I'm a very liberal person (I know, being on the extreme is a fault). Here's the deal...I, like most liberals I know, have family values. We believe very strongly in family. My objections to Palin isn't about family values...it's her lack of depth...her lack of ability. It's irratating to hear bright people, such as yourself, insinuate that we on the left don't value the family. I realize you directed the statement to the "politaclly correct", but in these post Reagan years, that equates to liberals. That may not have been your intent, but it's just kind of a sore spot for me. I guess 'cause I've heard so much of it in the media.

jcd, you have a great talent for making sense while not insulting someone. I like reading your posts Watch out for the cow! She kisses... Ah my bad per family values. I didn't mean to sound so prejudiced towards all Liberals. I thank you highly for your correction.


I can't and shouldn't say all Liberals are bad. As for Palin, my objection is to her treatment per the press. However jcd you bring up excellent points per any flaws she might have per her politics. I can't say I represent all of her views and/or fully agree with her opinions.

Ah my PC thingie-jcd for me it's about divorce and how fathers are treated unfairly; even killed. Again you bring up an excellent point per me here labeling all Liberals as PC [and/or all PC as bad.] I've read your views above and must concur Republicans since Reagen have treated all of you guys unfairly.
- July 10th, 2009, 10:52 pm
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jcd,

I won't try and quote each point and address it inidvidually (too much cutting and pasting ), but I'll adress some of your arguments.

When I said she "burst on the scene" I meant at the time she was announced as his VP. That first speech she gave when first introduced went over very very well. Her favorability rating was very high after that. She continued to make a good impression up through the convention where again her Convention Speech was rated very high.

It is true that anyone in politics is going to be attacked by the other side, but if you are a conservative then you also get piled on by the main stream media. The dems and media were scared because her positives were so high and her negatives were so low. The counter tactic to this is always the same. You try and drive up someone's negatives. The only problem was that Palin gave them some ammunition to use, and it hurt her.

As far as her being popular and well received among Republicans, I saw several polls to back this up. Starting with the time McCain announced Palin as VP his numbers started to go up, and after the Republican convention he was actually ahead. I remember watching Obama fumble and scramble during that time. He was not used to being behind, and it was obvious to me he didn't handle himself near as well. But when the economy started to sink really badly everything changed. The election became more and more a referendum on Bush, and McCain started to sink. Nothing could save him from that point on.

Have there been other tough Republican women? Yes of course, but none so far have been in a position to challenge the liberal establishment on a national level. Palin was in a position to be much more threatening then all the others you mentioned.

Just about every high profile Republican African American has had to deal with being called an Uncle Tom from Colin Powell to Secretary Rice to Clarence Thomas, etc. I haven't heard it publicly about Steele to this point, but I guarantee you it's been whispered about.
- July 10th, 2009, 10:55 pm
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outlaw1 wrote :
You are right, I agree with your post. However aren't many Texans very patriotic?
Certainly . Hey outlaw, for some reason I've got it in my head that you're a military history buff. Is this true?
- July 10th, 2009, 10:59 pm
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jcd,

As for thinking she wasn't tough, again read my post about how she challenged a sitting governor, and how she took on the goold ole boy Republican party insiders in Alaska. She didn't just come across as tough, but she had some things to back it up.

I honestly can't believe you feel Ferarro was in a different league than Palin. Ferarro was a rookie congresswoman with absolutely no other experience. She was literally plucked from obscurity just because she was a woman. Mondale figured he was a longshot so he might as well throw a hail-mary and put a woman on the ticket.

Again we can go back and forth on how Palin hurt herself and how many of her reactions put gasoline on an already blazing fire. There's lot of lessons to be learned from this. I believe Palin has a future if she wants it, but she's going to have to earn it through years of hard work just like she had to put in all those years before she could run for Governor. She's also relatively young at 44, so she's got plenty of time.
- July 10th, 2009, 11:00 pm
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Walter,

Okay, I'll give you some of your points. Palin was more favorably received up until the convention. I disagree that it was due to her being articulate, or any such thing. Point of fact, she was very quite, and no one really knew anything about her. When she actually started talking is when the damn burst. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I believe the VP debates were the turning point. She made a fool of herself, and kept sticking her foot in her mouth. As you say, she gave the press ammunition to shoot her with.

As far as ratings, well...they are what they are. I mean, Obama has an extrememly high rating, right? I'm going to choose to speak from my expeience here. As I'm sure you know, the electoral votes from Texas went to McCain. I know quite a number of staunch democrats from Texas who voted for McCain. Palin did not factor into thier decisions. From my personal knowledge, it was only the extreme conservatives I knew who liked Palin. Everyone else I know who voted for McCain did so despite Palin.

You are right about the economy changing the tide of the election though. It's kind of ironic, because it was McCain who chose to make it a priority. It was like he took a page from Clinton's stratagy - "It's the economy, stupid". He forgot that Obama isn't Papa George. McCain wasn't doing well in the polls because of Palin. He was doing well because he's Senator John frickin' McCain. He's a highly qualified individual.

I guess as far as the media's treatment of Palin...well, I think it would have blown over if she didn't take it so personally. I honestly don't think she would have such a hard time from it if she wasn't always proving them right. Did you ever see the South Park episode with Hillary? It wasn't very nice. Hillary ignored it. Palin would have made a big deal about what a "victim" she was. The Media will do anything it can to booste ratings. Ratings equate to profit. What do you think about the Media's representation of Meghan McCain?

If you ask around, you'll probably find a lot of liberals who respect Colin Powell. In fact, I remember watching an episode of Real Time not long ago where Mahr (who can be - in some ways - a bad example of extreme libralism...in re polital correctness ) having some pretty glowing comments about him.

Last edited by jcd1968; July 10th, 2009 at 11:26 pm.
- July 10th, 2009, 11:23 pm
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Sort of off-topic, but when I said there was nothing McCain could have done once the economy started sinking, I could be wrong.

There were many such as myself that were hoping that when McCain suspended his campaign that he would go to Washington and oppose the bailout and line up with conservatives. He didn't, and he ended up going with the establishment.

I remember thinking the next day, "John McCain has touted himself as being a maverick all his career, and he picks now to go along with crowd?"

My congressman (who is a Repub) supported the bailout, and I remember calling his office several times. He was a complete lemming during the whole thing, and it made me sick. As strange as it may sound, (coming from a Repub) after so many voted for that bailout I was glad to see them take a beating in that election.
- July 10th, 2009, 11:45 pm
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Originally Posted by outlaw1

You are right, I agree with your post. However aren't many Texans very patriotic?
_________________________________________


JTF wrote :
Certainly . Hey outlaw, for some reason I've got it in my head that you're a military history buff. Is this true?

Yes, Ost Front, WW2 and a little Vietnam. How did you tell, was it my Vietnam red dust vocabulary or my Solzhenitzen Siberian labor camp langauge?
- July 10th, 2009, 11:48 pm
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waltercl wrote :
All news of this sort is viewed through whatever political prism someone chooses to use. I believe I'm in that rare minority that doesn't use a prism and just calls it like it is. For instance I felt many Republicans during the Clinton years had a case of Clinton Derangement Syndrome. He was a somewhat decent president, never as bad as his critics suggested and never as good as his admirers. I feel the same about Bush. I could offer lots of criticisms of people from both political parties. The difference between me and most of those who use political prisms is that I don't check to see what political party someone is from before I decide whether what they did is good or bad.

So here is some straight truth about Palin. When she burst on the scene she was articulate, attractive, and well-liked. This was an immediate threat to the left because they want to perpetuate the image that Republicans and conservatives in particular are only representative of old white men. Also Palin showed an ability to be tough. She had a well earned reputation of taking on the good old boys in the Republican party in Alaska. She took on and beat a sitting Governor in the Republican primary. You have to know a little bit about politics to know how challenging and absolutely risky that was. Only liberal women are suppose to be assertive and tough so Palin shattered that myth. These are just some of the many reasons the media was against her from the beginning and determined to get her.

But wasn't she too inexperienced? Well she had been a mayor, and she had been the head of an important department dealing with oil in Alaska and been a sitting Governor. If you want to see if she was treated fairly based on her experience level all you have to do is go back to 1984 when the first woman was nominated for Vice President. Her name was Geraldine Ferarro. She was a one term congresswoman with no other relevant experiences. Were there vast criticisms from the media about her being inexperienced? Absolutely not. All you heard the media talk about was how ground-breaking this was for women. Double-standard? Of course. To suggest otherwise is complete ignorance.

Don't even get me started about the uneven treatment in the Vice Presidential debates. I can put up several statements that Biden made in that debate that were factually challenged. Stylistically Palin held her on in that debate, but substantively she was challenged.

More straight truth. Palin didn't help herself. Yes she was tough, and yes she was articulate, and yes she was attractive and at times even adorable. But in my view she was also over-confident. When she would be asked questions that she didn't know the answer to or was unfamiliar with the issues then she would talk in circles and cliche's. She also seemed to take things too personally. If you're going to be a conservative on the national stage then you have to accept being a victim of unfair attacks and mischaracterizations. It's one thing to be a victim, and it's quite another to take on the role of a victim. The press conference where she resigned was a disaster. She came off as a bitter victim.

My understanding from what I've read is that after the campaign was over Palin took things even more personally and began to take on a more defensive posture. One might argue that given all the pressure and attacks that this was a normal reaction, but at some point she's either got to shake it off or get out. That's why I cut her slack on resigning. I don't think it's good for her political career, but it may be what she needed to do at that time for herself and family. The problem I have though is those who still want to thrust her out on a national stage to run for President in 2012. I suspect there are many around her that are pumping her with false bravado that she can do this. Yes she is still popular in conservative circles, but her reactions to events tells that she is nowhere near ready for that kind of challenge. She relies way too much on rhetoric and doesn't seem to feel a need to grapple with the complex details of an issue. She needs to be able to talk about all issues the same as she can energy. I suspect that she wants a short-cut and doesn't want to put in the hard work right now. It took her years to come to an understanding of energy policy, and it will take the same for other issues.

The good that can come out of this is that we can see firsthand what will happen when someone from a different group than white men stands up and becomes a force for conservatism. Women will be come under all kinds of attacks like Palin. If it is an African American then they will have to deal with all kinds of accusations about being an Uncle Tom, and if it is a Latino then they'll engender their share of attacks as well. On a national level Democrats get a majority of women voters, over 90% of African Americans, and a sizable majority of Latinos. Yet in all but one recent election they still have a tough time getting near 50% in a presidential election. If Conservatives make any appreciable gains in any of those groups then it would produce a major swing in outcome. The media and the left know what's at stake. That's why they'll defend their territory to the death and ruthlessly attack any Republican candidate that challenges that territory.

To sum it up, Palin got in their cross-fire and reaped the results. She didn't handle it too well and became defensive and reactionary. Now she'll have to recover and regroup if she is to have a political career in the future.
True...it iis possible for her to resurrect her career...anything is possible.

We won't know if she falls to the wayside like all the other "Dan Quayles" that have made faux pas and messes of their political career. Perception is 99% and she will have to change how men (and women) view her,..indeed!

Only time will tell....

Last edited by legend29; July 11th, 2009 at 05:03 am.
- July 11th, 2009, 04:07 am
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I knew at least 8 years before it happened that John McCain would be the one to very soon be the Republican candidate for Pres. Noone believed me then.

I like John McCain & think that he is a very sensible & knowledgable man.

I also do not think that the economy derailed his chances in the election. I don't believe that he could have done anything differently that would have resulted in a different outcome. The temporary lead that he may have gotten was the Palin effect but that was not real (it was an artificial & temporary boost) & was proven as such.

Sarah Palin certainly did not help him but no other VP would have either.

I am pleased to see McCain doing good work in Arizona as usual. There are a lot of lousy Senators but McCain is not one of them.
- July 11th, 2009, 04:40 pm
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bigfincat wrote :
1
Sarah Palin certainly did not help him but no other VP would have either.

I am pleased to see McCain doing good work in Arizona as usual. There are a lot of lousy Senators but McCain is not one of them.
I don't know. I think if he would have been allowed to choose Lieberman as his running mate, he would have won that puppy.
- July 11th, 2009, 05:01 pm
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